5G for Dura. Bikes cost more than motos, makes no sense at all. That's a lot to love. Department-store bikes look a lot better than they used to. When flexing the wheels on hard pedaling, I get some rubbing which viathon attributed to spokes being out of tension, but the clearance is ridiculously minimal. The shifters and RD were DA and that was it. But the bikes are neither crap nor cheap. Dollar-for-dollar there are other carbon-framed high-end bikes out there that undercut the Viathon offerings. And 2 years ago, the company hired Zach Spinhirne-Martin, a senior buyer at CompetitiveCyclist.com. Browse. Road, Gravel Bikes Viathon's G.1 gravel bike requires the same build. GearJunkie Copyright 2013 2023. There are many many people for whom Wmart is their entire mass produced goods consumption experience. ($1k frame only pricing). People talking about this being good for "the industry" have no idea what they're talking about. Viathon will benefit from the supply side muscle of Walmart, it may even one day be sold in Walmart stores, but it wont ever market itself as offering Walmart bikes., Australian MTB lifestyle brand Dharco has officially opened its European subsidiary, and has plans to, The BikeBiz jobs board helped filled over 740 positions in 2022, and listings are still, German custom bike brand Velo De Ville is due to launch in the UK and, Ribble Cycles has just announced a new collective of sponsored ridings, competing across various disciplines., Historic lock brand Squire has launched its first range of wearable security equipment for the, SRAM has released the latest development in its Force AXS groupset, including a new shifter. Cue the cheap-crap jokes. houses for sale hervey bay $250,000 to; gwinnett county gun show 2021; eagle point elementary school staff; super shuttle sanford airport Unbelievable a$$holes, TLDR: "successful family chooses to enjoy their success while remaining frugal to ensure long term multigenerational wealth". Read through the small print "Returns and Refund Policy: 60 days from date of purchase - new or used with proof of original purchase. 1600 is still not going to mitigate the way this bike rides, and that is maybe something some folks wouldnt be willing to compromise on at any price. The bike thats getting the most attention is Viathons new hardtail mountain bike, though Walmart is also launching with road and gravel options. In the meantime, it seems Walmart isn't quite sure what they've created or who . You cannot buy a Viathon bike from one of Walmarts 4000 plus US stores (or from Asda supermarkets in the UK). When everyones selling a $3,500-ish Shimano Ultegra disc-equipped carbon gravel bike with an oversize headtube, asymmetric rear triangle, and scads of tire clearance, its a little hard to stand apart from the crowdeven when there are real differences. We cannot predict, or really have a way to know, when, or by how much, a brand is going to discount a product. No dropper on the GX spec? Now it has a toe in the high-end market and the chance to show that itscapable of making quality stuff. Ive already gotten questions for people internationally. One could even go as far as to install Redshifts own ShockStop Seat Post for the ultimate smoothness out back. Hey Waltins: quit coming to aspen and stay in facking arkansas. Mountain bikes that rival the cost of motorcycles, silly parts that cost $30 for a $5 part, extremely expensive tools (because Park Tools is worse than Snap-On), etc. Browse our range of in stock and ready to ship road, gravel, mountain, hybrid and electric bikes. WhatsApp. I did hear you and Andy mention 2300 on podcast 65. "Of course, there was some backlash with the Walmart connection,'' said Mark Jordan, whose CrankTank marketing group staged the Viathon launch and was quoted in Yobbi's original article. ViathonBicycles.com newsletter codes, Viathon Bicycles reseller codes, Viathon Bicycles competitor coupon codes. For the last update and a link to the introductions, Click Here. I'll be honest if I ever worried about someone thinking less of me for buying a bike at Walmart I'd probably leave the bike wherever I was and get out of the hobby. 'Box-store bike' takes on a whole new meaning as Walmart launches Viathonn, a private high-end cycling brand. c'mon. While you could swap to 650B wheels, and the bike can carry a front rack, there isnt a lot of versatility built in here beyond that. Walmart's first mountain bike offering is a carbon hardtail called the M.1. 1 - Walmart didn't buy Viathon. Don't think too fast. You can buy the same frames on aliexpress for under $300, or if you're more risk-adverse you can buy them through this guy: Perhaps we'll see a revolution that surfing seems to be having. It's why car companies like BMW don't come out with a new 3-series every year, but more like every 7. cycling, Press J to jump to the feed. Nope: while the bikes its offering look to be good quality and competitively priced, the reason that Viathons entry turned heads is whos behind it: Walmart. Climbing and racing bikes made of carbon are tough enough for tumbles and rough riding. It starts with younger customers.. And no im not interested in your bicycle either. Now on to the final word on this carbon fiber crushed rock roller. And the company currently sells more bicycles in the United States than any other retailer. And its not as though it was even that expensive to create, at least not in Walmart terms. Bike shops could benefit from more riders on more bikes. Surprised it hasn't happened already or will it appear on tomorrow's front page! The pricing. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. I have noted that we are not the only ones saying this, for what it is worth. Get Free Shipping Storewide ViathonBicycles.com w/ Coupon (Activate). Years ago a friend of mine bought a carbon fiber Dura Ace bike. Sure, some R and D for that motorcycle has come from up and down the lineup, but the same can be said for the bike companies. 3 - OP linked to the Walmart site, which had little information. Wouldnt be caught dead buying one of their bikes but competition in any industry is a good thing. what happened to viathon bikes. Were partnering with the bike industry to deliver so we dont mess it up, said Spinhirne-Martin. When you're at this level, you may as well just buy direct from manufacturer through Aliexpress, They need to build a 130/140 travel trail bike for 2k with GX eagle then I am in lol. Good question, Dan, and one we'll come back to in just a minute. Viathonbicycles.com has more info. I'd love to buy a rigid carbon 29er single speed for about $1300 Viathon. Industry watchers may remember the last time Walmart tried to get into the carbon bike game, which as I recall was about ten years ago. At any rate, the Viathon G1 is an interesting option that we hope to see developed into something more refined in the areas of rider comfort, versatility, and geometry in the future. Let's see the salaries of engineers at Specialized giving us all these "advancements" in recent years that 90% of people riding mountain bicycles on trails don't need. The M1 carbon hardtail, with a SRAM GX Ealge driveterain comes in at a bargain price of $2,200, with the top-level SRAM AXS electronic drivetrain equipped model hitting $6,500. (if they care about value, they'll go YT or Canyon, etc.). Good, we need more of this competition. I know you're talking frame only, but at least this one ships with tires that actually fit the frame (unlike the DV9, which has known problem with tire rub on the tires it ships with). Even more interesting was Jordan's underlying premise that at least some of those hundreds of millions of Walmart customers would for reasons unknown and perhaps unknowable leap at the opportunity to purchase a full-dress carbon bike with a price tag northward of $3,000 precisely because they didn't have to go into a brick-and-mortar bike shop to purchase it. For less. best army base in germany is dr abraham wagner married is dr abraham wagner married Call it a 'Walmart' bike if you must. Viathon Bicycles announced today it will sponsor the Caffeine and Watts Club. Every single mountain bike I owned is used, unlike a motorcycle they should not depreciate as much (mileage) because there are few moving parts..I currently ride an RM Altitude MSRP $6k + tax however I bought it used and paid less then the cheapest Viathon bike!!! Should brick-and-mortar or other online retailers worry? $2000 is still steep for an entry level hardtail, especially without at 27.5+ option. And I suspect Viathon isnt relying on a deep tech story to market its bikes for a simple reason: the frames dont seem to offer clear innovation in design or materials. Absurd that things with engines are cheaper than pedal bikes. 207 I mean, they still have to make the same deals with sram, rockshox, shimano etc. Viathon is a new direct-to-consumer bike brand owned by Walmart that launched this week with a line of carbon bikes that sell between $2,300 and $6,000. 2 - You can't buy these bikes at a Walmart. It's not the products: a three-frame range of MTBs, and gravel and road bikes. Except none of that happened. The rolex is just a bunch of metal gears and springs where the casio has a better computer in it than what got us to the moon! Bikes are getting more expensive because more expensive bikes and bike parts are selling better than cheaper bikes and bike parts. Ive heard quotes saying a pros super cross bike runs around 100-200k. @jason-99: With that logic, give everyone nukes. Thanks to a dropped chainstay design, the G1 clearance for 700c x 40mm or 650b x 2.1" tires and a maximum chainring size of 50t, according to the viathonbicycles.com website, while walmart.com boasts 700c clearance up . And I want to get more people on bikes. To be honest they have decent bikes (they sold an aluminum frame/carbon fork road bike with Ultegra Di2 and disc brakes for about EUR 1800, which is/was unique in the industry I believe) but, take this as you may, I only buy products from this line (clothing mostly) which don't feature large logos. They knew about it prior to launch only because I happened to meet Steuart in our office in January so I was able to show him a couple of pictures. A slacker/longer hardtail in the Chameleon/Honzo mold, with carbon frame for $2k might get people looking. I don't know what site you are on but thats all there. "SHIMANO 105 FC-R7000, HOLLOWTECH 2, 50-34T". @Greg B We did not experience that issue, but as you say, the clearances are minimal, and that is not an uncommon issue with many combinations of calipers/wheels. We got bills to pay and we work our asses off for you ya jergoffs. Viathon was his idea, springing from his background as a former pro rider, a one-time USA Cycling team mechanic and latterly a web commerce geek with Backcountry.com and before that Competitivecyclist.com. Well I'm kinda torn here. Note: Viathon sent over the Rival 1 G1 bicycle for test and review at no charge to Riding Gravel. At The Finish: So, what we have here is an interesting sales model and a fine bike for those who crave the ultimate in efficiency that carbon fiber can bring to the table. Its exploding right now because people are afraid of riding in traffic. 2G for 105, 1.5G for a frame. Walmart thinks so, and the retail juggernaut is betting its customers do too. The issue with Walmart isn't how the founders choose to spend their billions, but the effect that Walmart has on local economies. Its not the products: a three-frame range of MTBs, and gravel and road bikes. Does it seem like a no-brainer to spring for Viathon for people interested in that? Doubt they are taking a loss, even at these prices. In fact, the only example I can think of where a large outside brand has achieved even modest success is Dorel Industries, with its serial purchases of Pacific, Cannondale, Schwinn, GT and related brands. It has more clearance and a modern, slack trail geometry that keeps things loose no matter how tough the terrain gets. This may have been mentioned already but Im not gonna read everything. He doesnt have a marketing team: he outsources that to Idaho-based Cranktank, the PR and marketing outfit led by Adrian Montgomery, ex of Scott, and Scott Montgomery, ex of both Cannondale and Scott and who is also the current president of Reynolds Cycling. We highly recommend retaining the original shipping box & protective packaging for future use. It has longer, slacker geometry than its road bike cousin and different tube shaping. Bikes. But the move that really set the cat among the industry pigeons was the Viathon sales strategy, which at least strongly hinted at distribution via Walmart.com. Viathon's goals seem to be crystal clear with the R.1: Build a race-ready road bike for a high-end audience without the high-end price tag. I would love to see good reviews on them, but KevCentral's just don't cut it for me for actual riding. That makes sense. Love lower price bikes and bringing the MTB sport to more people.. installing vinyl sheet flooring on wall . Second, the designers chose to mount a dropper seatpost as standard equipment on the M.1. All this went down in April and May of this year. Someone posted an Outside magazine article above that details it. 12-speed, electronic shifting, handlebar diameter changes, four piston brakes, blah blah don't need. GravelNut April 10, 2019, . Viathon Bikes launched to surprise, confusion and intrigue back in April, offering high-end carbon XC hardtails despite links to Walmart. Unlike, say, the car industry, its relatively cheap to launch into the world of making bicycles, even bespoke framed ones. Never blame a person, blame a tool, people are never to blame only the tools they choose to use. Stock yz250 is a joke compared to what actual supercross athletes ride. Thats a call youll have to make. Its one of the biggest online merchants in the world, No. 39w. If successful, Viathon can be rolled out widely, claimed Spinhirne-Martin.With the backing of Walmart, we can scale very quickly., Im focusing on the US right now. Hi all Thanks for the reviews and updates. My surfing friends friends and others who are "action sports oriented" are super hesitant to bike at first due to the cost of entry, fear of injury, etc. Viathon has chosen a RockShox SID RLC with 120mm of travel. Walmart is the largest retailer for bikes in America by a good margin. I dont shop at Walmart anyway since they decided to blame guns for violence. I read an article that estimates the bikes the top pro supercross riders use would cost somewhere in the range 100k-200k. Spinhirne-Martin says Walmart is launching with the hardtail to fill in holes in what they already offer on the Walmart.com marketplace. I was recruited two and a half years ago to raise the game and show what Walmart can deliver in terms of bikes, Spinhirne-Martin tells me. First they took our jerbs, and they're taking our guns! I'll bet. this will fail big time not just a little. Viathon Bicycles made waves at its launch earlier this year as a premium bike brand incubated under an unlikely source. For anyone familiar with the beer industry, this is like Anheuser-Busch creating Shocktop, not Anheuser-Busch buying Goose Island or Elysian. according to industry analyst Jay Townley. It turns out that Walmart bike buyers, as much as theyre dismissed or even ridiculed, include some passionate fans. Viathon's staff is made up of bike industry veterans, and the company has partnered with Kevin Quan Studios for its design and engineering. Be here, Virtually. However; on crushed rock and rough surfaces, the overly-stiff front fork can be a liability when it comes to rider comfort. But Ive never seen the numbers. Its easier and faster for me to expand our bike offering online than it is to go into stores. I might consider buying it for the components. Its not the frames: they arent open-mould no-names, all three shapes were CAD designed by the legendary Kevin Quan Studios of Toronto, Canada. Things have moved on. Manufacturing costs vary inversely with manufacturing rate. I'm a kiter, and that industry is even worse. Viathons carbon bikes retail online for between $2,300 and $6,000. But the bikes are neither crap nor cheap. Certainly, Walmart has the resources to overcome that, if it chooses, and it also has a reach like few other companiesWalmart sells more bicycles in North America than any other retailer, according to industry analyst Jay Townley. Schedule a free call. All the frames are carbon fiber, and the gravel and road models fit solidly within current design trends that prize features like disc brakes and clearance for wider tires. not bad at all. Also something to liven up trails that you ride regularly. There is certainly a fair amount of seat post extension to work with there., explained Andy T. Hes right too. Y'all talk a big game about wanting more low-priced options but no one is out there actually buying them - I do P&A analysis for a bike distributors, I would know. It can take 650b wheels with up to 2.1-inch tires, or 700c wheels with up to 51mm tires. I won't shop with them. FWIW, Ibis quietly raised the price on the DV9 to $1250 about ~6 month ago. milford regional lab franklin, ma. Little info you may want to know about the Waltons. Are bike shopsscary, elitist, and unwelcoming? machines ect. Who the fuck cares where it came from, so long as it is a good bike. Viathon made a big splash when it announced its presence to the bicycle world back in April, leveraging the cost-efficiency muscle of its parent company, Walmart, into a line of carbon bikes that . The bikes will be available to order within weeks. Viathon bikes are not yet available, but appear set to retail through a direct to consumer model, rather than stocked in Walmart stores. It's been just about four months since a line of consumer-direct carbon road, gravel and mountain bikes premiered from a new brand called Viathon, emerging out of the bright Sea Otter sunshine like the goddess Athena springing full-formed from the forehead of Zeus. Its a fine balance caused by the nature of disc brake calipers, front wheel spacing, hub flange spacing, and wheel design. There is very little flex since your BB is both on the swingarm and the front triangle. Walmart Launches High-End 'Viathon' Bike Brand - Pinkbike. And while the bikes may be sold on Walmarts website at some point, theres no mention ofselling in stores, which would put the bikes in front of a broader audience. If nothing else, we've been surviving in this business for decades and we know the "easiest way to make a small fortune" in it a lesson which even the best-heeled outsiders have yet to learn. By running razor thin margins at insane volumes. Without the curiousness of the Walmart link, I wouldnt even be writing about Viathon. Although from a bike industry perspective, the geometry is a few years outdated even for a hardtail. See how long we last Shimano Consolidates Entry- to Mid-Level Groupsets With New CUES Drivetrains, Opinion: Five Things The Bike Industry Could Do Better, Throwback Thursday: A Brief History of Direct Mount Derailleurs, Buying a Bike From a Shop Versus Buying Online, DH Bike Review: Canfield's Jedi Masters Rough Terrain, Review: Mythos 3D-Printed Titanium Stem is My Kind of Excess, DH Bike Review: Orange 279 - A Staple of British Downhill Racing, www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-gear/first-ride-review-deciphering-the-viathon-m1-hardtail-mtb, www.outsideonline.com/2295486/single-track-minds, www.diycarbonbikes.com/collections/hardtailframes. Damn. Considering the Walmart shopper and what bike theyre on now, the answer is probably yes. The website has no we-can-offer-keenest-prices-because-were-Walmart spiel. No normal business can compete with their strategy. Thats a challenge. At first it was seemingly impressive for $2500. as an example they probably make 100-1000-10000 more of the same model moto as they would for the mtb. Walmart will sell bikes under this brand soon with price tags up to $6,000. The motorcycle comparison is nothing to do with whether its top spec blaa blaa blaa. The S-Works Epic only comes with an 11-speed groupsetthe Shimano XTR Di2so the Viathon wins in our books with the snazzy eagle. In effect, Viathon is a pop-up bike brand, and just as quickly as it has appeared it could just as easily disappear again, no skin off Walmarts very large nose. Pinterest. The R.1 is available in five stock frame sizes (52-59cm), and three complete bike build in addition to the $2000 frame & fork. Bicycle Shop. Viathon bikes. Viathon is for riders who appreciate uncontrived quality, demand craftsmanship but recognize value, who pedal for health yet savor the ride. He employs six engineers and designers at his Toronto-based studio. The difference is being wholly owned by US hypermarket chain Walmart. reviewed it. i gave it a spin. its true, For everyone else. The history of the bicycle business is, in one sense, a history of powerful outsiders coming in to teach us dumb yokels how things are done in the Big Leagues. Apt analogy. Now with over twenty years under our belt we know more than ever how important the ride really is. Andy T described the handling as stock as being razor sharp, so from that standpoint, riders looking for a more road racing leaning gravel bike should be satisfied with the G1. I'm guessing this is Plan B to get the bike seen by more people Will it actually be in the store or order online with instore pickup or delivery? Order today! But it is building out a platform not just with more and better bikes, but with video and editorial support. So this is competing against the Ibis DV9? Its almost impossible for Walmart to develop premium offerings with the Walmart name, which is synonymous with keen pricing and out-of-favour out-of-town malls. If they add a similarly specced and priced short or mid travel fs bike, those things will sell like hot cakes. Lots of things coming from different directions can sometimes become out of whack enough to cause a problem. 1. And while low, Viathon pricing was at parity with any number of other name-brand carbon models, including Trek, Specialized, Cannondale and Canyon. If you're making more of something, you can afford to invest in tooling and equipment and processes to make it cheaper. The point is, a Viathon purchase does not include some intangibles that are benefits of buying in a traditional model. It's well documented in various media outlets. There are no whiz-bang spangles for instance, the MTB is a vanilla hardtail. If These guys could take a similar (or slightly better) spec and cut $200 off of it, and I'd bet it'd be a huge seller. Wal-Mart shoppers are not going to spend 3-5 k for a bike! No mention of any real pertinent specs that you'd expect when buying a bike. As we continue to build out the platform, we welcome other brands, said Spinhirne-Martin. And cost of owenership for the V10 is probably about the same as for a 450. Shop our Buy Direct collection for a new ride they'll love! Certainly Viathon's not to that point yet, but time will tell. But to drive the demand, there needs to be a product in place to capture attention. Some cyclists are extremely brand-loyal, willing to pay a premium for pride in heritage brands like Bianchi or Pinarello. Viathon equips the M.1 with two clever features that challenge the common definition of an elite cross-country bike. what happened to viathon bikes I wanted to make bikes that I would want to ride, says Spinhirne-Martin. We don't need a review. Have your questions answered, get a virtual tour of our showroom, collect measurements, or talk about financing options. You think bikes v motos are bad, hell you can get a casio watch for 1000x less than a rolex. Wed like to see fork mounts for extra water bottles, for instance. Will these bikes be sold in a box and assembled by the owner? Join Outside+ to get Outside magazine, access to exclusive content, 1,000s of training plans, and more. For instance, TRP Sprye calipers are known for having a part in this issue with many other combinations due to the wider caliper designed to accommodate the dual moving pistons on that design. The GVR is designed for the speed of race day and fast-paced action on pave and open fire road sections. (The Walmart connection can be found only on the sites copyright line.) Walmart didnt opt to adopt more modern geometry, possibly because its current customer base will have to take a few steps to catch up to the rest of the bike market. New bike brands come and go, but its rare that one makes as big of a splash with its debut as Viathon, a new direct-to-consumer marquee that launched this week. The Viathon G1 has been ridden a couple of months now by Andy T, and so we are ready to give the final verdict on this Walmart distributed bike. The bike arrives 98 percent pre-assembled the customer has to tighten on pedals, install the front wheel, and attach the front face plate over the handlebar. "The negativity starts in-store with reports of forks installed backward. Spinhirne-Martin wouldnt reveal sales targets but, reading between the lines, he likely doesnt have to sell many for the brand to be considered a success. Our Fezzari Bicycle experts are here to help you find the perfect bike. the forks face the right way. They travel by private jet, stay in luxury hotelshave huge parties And never tip anybody anything EVER. bikes bicycles Or did you have its sale / closeout pricing in mind ($1,599)? Your email address will not be published. Brilliant, someone commenting who clearly has no idea how much it costs to actually make a bike. DSA_CATEGORY:BIKES DSA_MARKETABLE_CATE As much as I agree with the general sentiment, there are some other factors that tend to get overlooked in this comparison: Wal-Mart has these pretzel bites with beer cheese for like $2 bucks, pretty freakin awesome after a ride. Meanwhile, the Waltons have put Millions? Certainly, there are many Walmart shoppers among us, though likely few who have bought a bike there. Spinhirne-Martin tells me to look around the Laguna Seca Raceway, which is teeming with fans, baggy shorts-wearing bros, and Lycra-clad racers with rippling muscles. Long, low, slack? As mentioned, this is the lowest-cost complete bike in Viathon's G.1 range, but that doesn't mean the parts are low-cost. Don't need. I can build proof of concept and then push over time into stores.. The simple answer is: because it can. They also have their own brands, among which there's their B-Twin brand of bikes and bike accessories brand. A few things are apparent with Viathon. Walmart isnt currently targeting the kind of customer who wants the latest carbon layup or the greatest new geometry, nor is it targeting customers who self-identify as cyclists. Doesn't really looks like a revolution to me yet. And failing. Viathon calls the full carbon frame optimized for light weight & efficient pedaling, claiming a frame weight of 870g a size 54 with all hardware. That bit of information, incidentally, is not something youll find on Viathons website. Could always ride it and return it! Lightweight carbon frames: Viathon bikes, including the Dura-Ace road bike, Ultegra model, R.1, and G.1 bikes, are crafted with durable, lightweight carbon frames to give you an edge over riders with heavier XC and mountain bikes. Im guessing thatwithout the connection to the largest retailer in the world, Viathon wouldnt be getting nearly this level of attention. For those people, being able to buy a high-quality bike online means they dont have to go into a potentially scary, elitist, unwelcoming bike shop where theyll be uncomfortable and possibly judged.. Cue the cheap-crap jokes. The Viathon M.1 GX Eagle Carbon Mountain Bike is a mountain bike with a versatile design for better performance anywhere on the trails. Another new direct-to-consumer brand, Remot, alsolaunched this week with far less buzz, despite being owned by American Bicycle Group, the holding company for established high-end brands Litespeed and Quintana Roo. Be good if they build some good stuff as oddly it seems they will give back. bike brands don't make as much as you think per unit. Bike is not returnable if damaged or not fit for continued use (Please see Warranty and Crash Replacement policy) ", i wouldnt buy the mountain bike but their gravel offering is interesting for sure at 3k. 0. khao lak, thailand tsunami 2004. The history of the bicycle business is, in one sense, a history of powerful outsiders coming in to teach us dumb yokels how things are done in the Big Leagues. Bike MSRP vs. what people actually pay is a whole nother conversation. Its also important to note whats not in the current lineup: womens bikes, utility bikes, and e-bikes. So far, Viathon isnt saying much about what makes its bikes different, nor is it telling much of a brand story. Who makes Viathon frames? Walmart is long known as the home of low cost bic. At this writing, the various models are listed at "Summer Sale" prices on the Viathon website. Viathon emerged as an interesting consumer-direct brand, under the ownership of Walmart. Could be interesting. The FD was 105 as was the 10 sp cassette. bikeit! As it is not a pinnacle that can be reached, it is an ongoing process of always honing, evolving, & refining the way our bikes feel. Two many folks here getting a bit specific. Maybe they could pump out some sultans for turner? The bikes themselves, it was agreed, were competently designed and engineered, and marketed by respected industry professionals with big-brand credentials. Don't forget to donate a dollar for starving children.
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