2. the fair alternative is a one time payment for a lifetime license with few patches priced in. In this case, I'm sure the shareware he wrote still "worked," but clearly they thought they were entitled to perpetual updates or the ability to chat to the developer any time they like. There's a free 14-day trial, and the subscription also gets users 1Password for iOS, Windows,. Any tool shares the same issues. not to mention I don't trust anything from microsoft. Poke around the application bundle or its supporting files directories. But it seems internally inconsistent to me to like the product, but have disdain for the professional judgement of the people who make it. Precisely why I chose 1Password when I started using it. And occasionally they'd tack on whatever extra they thought those features were worth to them. You don't have choice when apps are the same as services. Can even live with subscription (its just forking out a few bucks more), can even live with electron - at least a Linux client will be avaialable rightaway, but why no local store, Dropbox sync was working perfectly ! Today I use it on my Mac and my iPhone. 1Password 8 for iOS is available to download on the App Store. Every time I use an Electron app, I get the distinct feeling that its developers are prioritizing their experience over my own. how do you think the bitwarden client is made? This also works the same way with Touch ID. If you're comfortable with a snapshot w/o updates, then by all means buy once, but I think coming to terms with the demands of ongoing support also means coming to terms with continuing to support the product in some way. What's the main point of Bitwarden or competitors over traditional password managers such as KeePassXC? No, that is not misinformation. Well, best way to figure out myself is to downliad the Mac beta I guess. What ongoing development does a password manager have? Click Move Data. Also I see your reply has been downvoted enough to become grey. Here's a link to swag, if anyone hasn't heard of it before: WireGuard has already spoiled me, every time I have to fire up my job's bloatware VPN client I get a little bummed out now. Will user accept this? We don't pre-announce products or plans, and that includes things like 1Password 8 and what upgrades might look like. Where they going out of business before offering stand alone licenses? Save at 1Password - Switch to 1Password and Enjoy 50% off Family Plans. Maybe its irrational, I just dont like being so dependent on a subscription service, and having a local network sync between my devices was just fine. This is the reason I bought my first license of 1Password many years ago. I'm somewhere in between. Now people will still yell at you, even once you've moved on to other projects, and even more people will do so since they actually pay and assume that it is your obligation. Rarely-used programs, I mostly don't care, and Electron's fine. Though, it's kind of sad for Mac users as they have been spoiled with native experiences for a long time. The browser integration is Crap though especially compared to 1Password. The secret part is that they've gone to great lengths to bury the standalone version 7 link on their website, and now they're claiming that not many people buy it. The one thing I do remember in the vein of "dark patterns" is how they effectively hid the method of doing a one-time payment for 1Password where you have to manage syncing and backing up the password file yourself. If you were running a business, and 97% of your users had abandoned a feature that was a headache for you to maintain, would you stubbornly keep wasting time and money on it? There's choice with password managers. I love curl and its awesome, but dont want to pay $5/month/forever. Does it still do that if you click the pop-out button so that Bitwarden has it's own window? > You'd get rid of a working solution because of an implementation decision? I think there is an element of truth in that, especially on the Microsoft side. Similar here, I started using 1Password pretty early too. I don't know how I missed this. Also a standalone user for years. > I'd be hopeful that whatever tradeoffs y'all will be making moving to Electron, the "native" feel of the macOS client wouldn't be sacrificed. What I'm not happy with is the possibility of password access being limited or sync breaking if 1Password servers go down. For my personal passwords, I prefer keeping a local KeePass vault (I access over a local network drive, VPN in elsewhere). >I think removing feature X makes sense, even if people are using it. Click and hold your mouse button on the page to select the area you wish to save or print. Maybe it was a timing thing, but I strictly remember it being different than how you describe here. 97% of people chose the subscription. 100% same. Over the past few years, we've been working on consolidating 1Password's business logic into a single Rust-powered core that could be shared across all our apps. I don't really understand the almost-automatic hatred of subscriptions. It's a weird spot for sure, I feel like table-stakes for a free password product is infinite devices + usable browser extension + phone apps + password generation. End result is your users having clunky, high latency experience. If 1Password doesnt ask you to migrate your data, choose Help > Tools > Migrate Standalone Vaults to Account, then select your account and click Continue. I don't want the only thing between you and my entire life to be one set of credentials. KUALA LUMPUR: Bank Muamalat Malaysia Bhd will revise its standard base rate (SBR), base rate (BR), and base financing rate (BFR) by 25 basis points each with effect from Nov 8, 2022 . 'Breech' of the site and realisation they host their passwords in clear text on an unsecured db online. You can just use 1Password. By popular demand you can now add your 2FA secrets to an item by scanning QR codes from within the main app, in addition to saving QRCodes in your browser. I have many applications that are electron based and the quality is generally high but some do cause significant memory pressure on my macbook air. This feature was a game changer for me and my Mac mini without Touch ID or Face ID, I didnt know this is a thing Ill have to look into it - thanks. You'd get rid of a working solution because of an implementation decision? These could either be synced through their website (1password account vaults) or saved to disk locally (local vaults). We the users subsidize faster development cycles with wasted CPU and memory, laggy interfaces, and strange, non-native UX. Just to clarify, what solution are you asking for? We have been working on these changes long before we received any form of outside investments. I am a computing student and I do understand the effort needed for app development. This is my new target platform. Whereas in reality some people probably get away with using password protected spreadsheets (don't do this). It saves me so much time compared to how I used to have to do it pull out phone, unlock, open Authy, wait forever for it to load, type in code, put phone away. This move makes sense to me given their market. I support 1PW using its money to grow in enterprise and on other platforms, but not at the expense of the customers who made 1PW successful in the first place., This is a huge step back in all aspects sadly, added xmanuw. That's fair. A malicious update that starts generating predictable passwords for websites doesn't need a network connection. > Phishing attack Strongbox? I got Windows going on a throwaway VM and installed the 1P client. Well, its whats going on in 1Password 8 under the hood that has long-time users so upset. Youre not limited to just one. It doesn't work that way economically. I purchased a 1Password license years ago. I recently cancelled Evernote after 12 years of paying for it due to their new Electron client. Uninstall 1Password 7. Phishing attack, If my password vault is compromised it's game over anyway. It removes a source of architectural complexity, and most users aren't looking for local storage anyway. Come back and you have to find the credit card again and then copy the next bit then go paste and when you come back you're once again presented with the full list so you have to go find the credit card again. We have been working on these changes long before we received any form of outside investments. Eventually, we had to make the tough decision to focus on a single common framework for desktop. You can click and drag the clipping box to move it or click and drag in the bottom right corner to resize it. Rust for the backend of the client apps, React for the UI, wrapped in Electron. If somebody creates the same experience in a less resource intensive framework I'm a in. You now have literally my entire digital life. If my internet connection goes down, how would I log in to my selfhosted software in my homelab over LAN, without being able to access the passwords? I still find myself using other apps because they're more responsive. Though one more point thats more than just "ease of use" is probably shared access. There are some apps/platforms that I believe /should/ be subscriptions and my password manager is absolutely one of those. 1Password (also $36/year) is a very close runner-up. Try 1Password free If it looks identical to the web app and consumes half a gig of RAM, it's probably electron. This! If you don't provide support when receiving subscriptions people will stop paying. Good UI has value. Sadly switching password managers, especially if you share with a family, is really painful. As long as the electron app is secure than I could care less, and if you don't trust 1Password to keep the electron app secure then you really shouldn't trust them to keep any other app secure either. Tap Move Data to migrate your 1Password data into your account. I'm paying for the software for the features. Please note that you're comparing a big product to a small open source software :) Of course would like to know how to make the extension better, so if you want to help us, make an issue to GitHub, thanks. December . Affordability is a mirage- $5 per month and $60 per year wont break a bank but its a huge amount to justify other geographies where money transactions are NOT in $$. If the people using the app are content with the features/quality and the resources it uses, why does it matter so much, especially to a third party like armchair engineers on HN, if it was built natively, on Electron, or CrappierFrameworkThatWillEventuallyReplaceElectron? Way too often, automatic upgrades silently break my existing software, take away functionality or introduce new bugs. I dont really mind about the Electron app. The issues are twofold: 1Password 8 will become subscription-only, thus removing the option to buy it outright; and; they've moved the app over to something called Electron. It can be used well. It also assumes you don't want the features in the paid version of Bitwarden, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. USD$3 a month seems reasonable for someone making a monthly income, but is a lot for a student who is making zero income. I have stopped using the discord desktop app and exclusively use the website now. It's not enough to send a few bucks a month. I believe that before the licenses, they did not have the recurring revenue to pay for a high-quality support team. And, of course, there are users who support the move to Electron, and appreciate that it could lead to a more unified experience across desktop platforms. It's frustrating, though, that I don't feel like the paid plans really give me anything useful, so I'd be paying basically just to support the product (which I'm happy to do!). Put it on the bottom button, and 2FA is fast and pretty convenient. How? +1 on Bitwarden. I _love_ 1P, and I use it on Mac, Windows, Linux, and iOS, and it makes perfect sense that they standardize on Electron. How often do we have new versions of iOS or macOS? We have me, my wife, my eldest, and my mum on it - and it is indeed super simple to be able to share things around. $10/year is a great deal. I think they may have even emailed it to people at one point (I've been a user since v3). VS Code is an example of Electron being "used well". I've tried rbw and rbw-fzf which are ok. rbw doesn't let me view all properties of an entry (attachments, notes), and rbw-fzf has issues if things have spaces in them and is limited to only passwords, not other info. Tap Scan your Setup Code and follow the onscreen instructions to scan your Setup Code. They both work fine for me, and probably should for most people. "We didn't choose this, you chose this!" 1Password 8 for Android / Crash on long press on password. Also I think the "head" of the family can reset passwords of the other accounts More pragmatically, that's a prime opportunity for some to make a nasty divorce quite a bit more nasty. Since we were rebuilding our app from the ground up, it was a significant slow-down on development to create a user interface for both Electron and SwiftUI, requiring two separate teams of platform developers for every feature we needed to implement. i thought most users were talking about personal use here? A competitor will come and take its place eventually; that's what the market is there for. Users trying to pay one-time-fees for licenses have been searching for answers in 1Password's forums, yet responses from 1Password parent company AgileBits appear to show that it's a challenge to buy anything other than a subscription membership. Yes, because the implementation decision has implications for both performance and UX. Thank you. If I'm syncing anywhere else, you've got a much bigger task ahead of you. Try 1Password free for 14 days, then keep going with a 1Password subscription. SEOUL South Korea's police chief said Tuesday that crowd control was "inadequate" in the Itaewon area in Seoul where at least 156 partygoers were killed in a crush. 1PW7 had some annoying UX regressions, and now this in 1PW8 This is the kind of shit I knew was going to happen when they raised money and entered the VC rat race Things we original users loved, like great apps, would be less of a priority., This feels like a betrayal of your original macOS customers, wrote Snorlax_Returns on Reddit. I did this with Photoshop for years, $399 per copy was perfectly fine for me because I spent that money every 3 or 4 years. This has many advantages: feature consistency across platforms, faster development cycles, and better security. Starting with 1Password 7's beta, they "hid" the standalone option on the site and then removed it completely and only allowed for purchasing standalone versions through the app itself but that was announced prior to them doing it. Enter the Master Password for your vault, then click Delete Vault. Synching is generally useful as well, besides password manager sharing. Bitwarden's desktop app is built on Electron.. Our decision to built the macOS app in Electron was absolutely not driven by VC money. Maybe it's that they're positioning to sell the company and moving to 100% subscription boosts the bottom line valuation. What Im getting is "its easier to set up"? You have apps on every device to access your password database and do autofill. We want native UI. No, that is not misinformation. I hope they spent time locking things down. I fully agree. I will be messaging you in 5 hours on 2020-03-05 01:58:16 UTC to remind you of this link. 1Password 8 does. So when we made the decision to stop working on the SwiftUI app, it was far from being complete. That for me, is a game changer. It's in the release notes, it was on the site, and it was in the forums. There seems to be no export mechanism from web access. I don't see where anyone was claiming it was done in secret. I was just thinking the exact same thing. 50%. Bitwarden run so much faster than 1password despite being a browser extension. Security on the go has never been this easy. I'm talking about the work just to keep the features that you have. Please stop spreading misinformation. December 31, 2022. If you have a team account, you can also upgrade to 1Password Business. Those that want to run a vault can use an alternative that's more of a hassle to deal with. With what seems like damn near everything moving to a subscription model, it's more money out of my pocket for usually what amounts to rent-seeking (i.e, demanding more money, more often, whilst providing no additional value). > It's in the release notes, it was on the site, and it was in the forums. Let's not act surprised when their only remaining customers were those who wanted a subscription version. Yes it is a waste of time, if you want to spend time doing other things in your life. I had bought several versions and both the Mac and Windows editions of 1Password over time, none of which were what I would consider inexpensive for a password manager. I'm also happy with Bitwarden--I switched from 1Password a while ago when 1Password started the push toward subscription (which involved dropping support for features that I used, and dark UI patterns around pushing the subscription version as well as getting and using the non-subscription version). iOS Open and unlock 1Password 7. Same reason Lightroom can pound sand with their $120/year licensing, Im not going to keep my photo library in something that I just have to keep paying for the rest of my life. I mention this only because it has changed the way I write notes and manage them and I've been through the path of Evernote > Apple Notes > Bear > Obsidian. After you upgrade to 1Password 8, set up 1Password to save and fill your passwords in Safari and in apps and other browsers. Invite people to a family or team at any time. > Hello, dear sir, this is the USA IRS and we are going to send the FBI because your TOTP code is expired and are going to put you in jail if you don hello? Wow, youre the real MVP here. 1Password 8 is currently available for download on the Apple App Store (opens in new tab) and the Google Play Store (opens in new tab). UX is perhaps not perfect. If youre using 1Password 6, learn how to upgrade then migrate your data to a 1Password account. Nothing they've done makes me suspect this. But, of course, that's a ridiculous hypothetical not really grounded in reality. I had no idea what Electron was until I met Rob. I have personal projects I'm working on where it feels like all I have time for is just keeping up with security updates, Ubuntu versions, DB version upgrades. I'm in the same boat. This could not be farther from the truth. I previously thought that we were just having a difference of risk tolerance, but if you think some rando can _phish_ a TOTP secret, we are not even in the same universe of risk mitigation, For passive phishing (e.g. So either the password is sent to their servers anyway or a malicious actor could simply update the client to do so. Take a look at the items marked new in the changelog. If the servers go down you'll never lose access to anything. Works great. Is it that buggy from the get-go to need constant updates? Tldr: Will 1Password 8 be out anytime soon? > The current direction of travel being voluntary means you've just got a bad nose for building security. So they made their own sync service and hid the version that would do local-only files so that only the dedicated users who really want to do that would find it and use it. It comes down to what value it provides to me for what I need it to do, which is store and retrieve passwords for me, and sync via wlan. To suggest that their userbase wanted to voluntarily give up their paid-for software that was working just fine and swap it out for a subscription service just to get feature parity is silly. Agreed - software like this doesn't exist in a vacuum of frozen dependencies (at least not until Urbit takes over). I know the standalone version of 1Password 7 exists, but I tried to find the price yesterday and gave up after a few minutes of poking around. If an attacker via a phone call is able to get the victim to (a) unlock their 1Password vault, (b) spell out their password for account X, what makes you think they couldn't get them to also (c) open their 2FA app and spell out their TOTP token? I probably spend $500-1000 every year just upgrading a certain few software packages that charge for a new version every time a new macOS comes out, and I hate it. no issue. That's a fair point! We actually did build a native Mac app initially alongside the cross-platform Electron app, but we eventually decided that having two separate versions of the macOS app (one in Electron, one in SwiftUI) would cause a lot of needless development churn and hassle for both customers and our support team. Getting something hardened and reliable is a different story. Should I hold off my purchase till 1Password 8 comes out, considering 1Password 7 is ~2 years old? This is probably an edge case where the fields in the browser cannot be identified by their ids/classname. As you said, they made it clear that subscription was the way of the future and that anyone who didn't want a subscription product should look elsewhere, so we did. I've been holding off on the subscription transition because I would derive zero value from switching to subscription but I'd gain a monthly payment I didn't have before. Someone above outlined it nicely: If you let 1Password take care of encrypting the vault, and iCloud (for example) of storing the vault securely, then a malicious actor would have to compromise both products to get your secrets. Use it in Firefox every day and have no complaints. Or go back to DOS and plain text files. (Of course, not only had I moved on to other projects, but I had long sold the type of computer the shareware was created for!). When they say "you chose this", they're referring to the time when that was on their site and people overwhelmingly chose the subscription. It was up to the user to take care of syncing this local vault file between devices (although they did support iCloud syncing between apple devices natively. Shall I stay or shall I find another somution? Unfortunately the complexity of chrome (which electron is based on) is already comparable to some old OSs, we even have ChromeOS isn't it? I cant see how switching my perfectly fine, frequently updated native app for a memory hogging web browser wrapper is a win for me. NEW YORK (AP) A man has been arrested with the gun used in a shooting last month outside the Long Island home of Rep. Lee Zeldin, the Republican candidate for governor of New York, authorities said Tuesday.. Noah Green, 18, was arrested Monday in Shirley on charges of criminal possession of a weapon and criminal possession of stolen property, Suffolk County District Attorney Raymond . My knowledge of how it works is that it always stores your passwords in an encrypted blob that can only be decrypted with a combination of username, "master password", and vault password. 1Password has continually added new/better features year after year and the price is tiny compared to the value I get (and then subsequently provide to people in my 'family'). and gotten friends and family to do the same, but I think Im done when 7 stops working. Choose monthly or annual billing. They offered standalone licenses and subscriptions for an entire version's lifecycle and 97% (or something crazy high like that) of the people who downloaded went for the subscription. I think that you see open source projects that struggle along all of the time because their developers cannot afford to work on them enough. Kuechel, Rausch earn weekly honors. The only thing missing is browser access but even though I now have browser access to Bitwarden I think Ive used it like twice. Im not sure what happens with all of those, maybe transformed into secure note, but again with all of the attachments removed. once you have a monopoly you can do whatever you want, thus why everyone keeps talking about EEE. This will allow us to ship features across every single platform far quicker than we could before. That's your mum and dad and other very likely non-techie people. > there are no conditions under which only one factor could be compromised without also having the other factor leaked, > Man in the middle attack Instead, the import was better than perfect: a bunch of accounts that wouldn't autofill in lastpass magically started to autofill after being imported into bitwarden. 1Password X doesnt work on Safari due to Apples limitations, and Safari is my main browser due to its integration in the Apple ecosystem. Go for it, there's nothing stopping them. I have never even _heard_ of someone having their 1P master password compromised and the vault(s) exfiltrated (although I grant you it could be just because the NSA doesn't write blog posts about their pwn2own victories), It's my recollection AgileBits is also running (that is: currently) a CTF with a publicly exposed vault, so folks can test the resilience against attack for themselves. We're not the primary target audience for 1Password, we just happen to fit under the umbrella anyway. Of course they don't, because it's virtually impossible to find or even know that it exists unless someone passes you the link. Is there anything you can speak to there that I should prepare for with 1Password 8? Currently doing just that, if any of my servers go down, i can still access all of my passwords on my desktop, on my laptop, on my tablet, on my phone or on my backup servers. It keeps the vendor financially healthy, stable and willing to keep developing the stuff you use. Again, Im glad it works for you and others. Was this a healthy and sustainable business before, or were these changes necessary for survival? For anyone who doesnt use shortcuts often, what you need to do in Shortcuts is: 1. Layering on unnecessary crap just to charge a fee eventually comes home to roost. Change your subscription To change an active subscription, click Billing in the sidebar, then click Billing Settings. I think it might be the only "better than perfect" import story I've ever experienced, and I can't rightly expect it to happen again, but it happened once and that's something. I switched to the KeePassXC ecosystem eventually as a result it's open source, has compatible clients for just about everything, and has one-click import for 1Password vaults. Brute force attack, (EDIT: Looks like between starting writing this and submitting it, you're no longer in the gray from downvotes!) Face ID unlock for Safari extension is back - I missed you! (That amount was less than minimum wage, if I took the time to implement those features for them and release the software.). > Especially when the product fits into $0 software so $4.99 is infinitely higher than $0. Add a one-time password and then click the QR . How do I set a default/preferred vault for RETRIEVING Cant display passwords like before 1Password 8. AFAIK Keepass has issues there while bitwarden (IIRC) supports it completely. 1Password is the worlds most trusted password manager and the easiest way to store and use strong passwords. I would, if I felt the need. The costs of developing and maintaining software are recurring -- especially for security-critical software. personally, i use bitwarden for passwords only, and i store backups of OTP seeds in a seperate keepass file. I too am a bit reluctant to Electron. We are not abandoning native app development. The password manager that's as beautiful and simple as it is secure. Fair enough! An extra factor of authentication. 1Password subscription billing is fair, flexible, and easy to understand: Get all the 1Password apps for free. The subscription fixes the problem because you can use the money from it to solve other problems in your life like having insufficient tacos in your stomach. So the user hostile changes aren't VC driven, they are internal choices. Recent and related: 1password is considering a self-hosted option to store vaults - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28104134 - Aug 2021 (215 comments). Potentially. If you choose to create a family or team account, only one person needs to set up an account. Is there even a Safari integration? It's not quite a silent dropping -- 1Password warns you with a popup during the export that it doesn't include them in the export file. I even pay for it now and still run it locally just to support them. Anyway thanks for showing me KeePassXC, looks like something Ill be very interested in. I think bitwarden is much less cringey as a corporation if you're looking for an alternative. Dropbox, OneDrive, icloud, and others have a free tier that is completely sufficient for a password vault. Subscription business models and non-native apps are hallmarks of rot by VCs.
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