I almost always fly IFR. a responsibility to operate safely and competently within the FARs regardless of the price of your plane. Keith - THANK YOU for all that you did to ensure the safety of your passengers and your crew! In contrast, the pilot of N731NR exhibited an unrepentant anti-authority attitude. Not buying the sick daughter excuse. She points out that he was not cleared to be there and repeats her order. The compilation is based on data from the agency's Enforcement Information System ( EIS ). ). Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. To break down the exchange, the air traffic controller orders the aircraft to leave the Bravo airspace and pilot whines and refuses because he's already in the airspace. How much you want to bet this pilot is one of the people who refuse to wear a mask? Did anyone ever find out what happened to this pilot? WWFeldman Pre-takeoff checklist Joined: Nov 11, 2019 Messages: 107 Display name: WWFeldman I'm sure we all remember our favorite bravo buster. Hard to believe there is somebody out there kind-of defending him! - entering B without explicit auth As well as this, you might want to consider making a call to an aviation attorney before you call the number that you have been provided with. She didn't take the high road when he became argumentative. Hey not fair to say that to PIA. often don't recognize their own issue. There are riots. I am sure you are a "perfect angel". Either that or he's going to get some very long vectors around special use airspace. I know this Controller and she is good at her job. Pilot "I busted class b". Attached is the letter in response to your above mentioned FOIA request. He endangered so many people. > Good job on hitting a new high USA! I know the FAA is trying to do the whole kinder gentler thing but there is a time to make an example. Hundreds could have died. N1NR answers back that "he's flying". That being said, its not just a comfort level thing or willingness issue - its often a safety Im an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that Im occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace. Reminds me of center frequencies ignoring calls from VFR aircraft. . I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. Mistakes happen. Nobody in Vegas is "allergic to rules." I fly in the busy Chicago airspace as a private pilot and the vast majority of Private pilots are as professional as the air transport pilots, and are often much less complacent in and around the class B and class C airspace. He did request a clearance. Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation in this matter. "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not forthemselves, and under a just God, cannot long retain it. For more information, please see our In over 30 years of flying, I have sat and listened to amateur pilots give ATC professionals a load of sh*#. Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so. * See for example https://youtu.be/mUSUXnr4dSo, Subject: HQ: Request 2020-007191 under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. Pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby request the following records: An electronic copy of:- any accident, investigation, pilot deviation reports, legal enforcement actions (incl suspensions, revocations and/or monetary penalties) or FSDO records (including statements or phone recordings from Las Vegas or Henderson Tower ATC regarding a possible pivot deviation on June 20, 2020 where N731NR may have entered Bravo airspace without clearance*)- from 2018-Nov-5 to present,- of owner WIFE APPROVED LLC, registration N731NR, or Jeff Wachner. 08:47PM EDT Montreal-Trudeau - YUL. "LAS: "Nobody clears you through the Bravo but me. Shout out to Capt. I live under the approach and departure path to MIA, so I constantly have ATC audio playing in the background. Anyway, a video has just been uploaded of an interaction between an air traffic controller and a pilot over the skies of Las Vegas on June 20, 2020. Please find attached the completed copy of your FOIA request number 2020-007191 from the Aviation Data Systems Branch in Oklahoma City. If you read what I wrote with an open mind and still think I have a stick up my ass, go read up on Kobe Bryant the basketball legend no longer with us because someone buckaroo'd it. At the point you're referring to he was a FREAKING IDIOT who SHOULD LOSE HIS CERT violating airspace. like this one. How reassuring and interesting your post is, Eldo. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. CTO (Control Tower Operator) with AS Degree in ATC. But if it was just a misjudgment, and we all make those from time to time, the appropriate response would be to simply apologize to the Controller, then get out. 731NR | Pilots of America Home Forums Controlled Airspace Flight Following 731NR Discussion in ' Flight Following ' started by WWFeldman, Oct 29, 2020 . She then states (in so many words) that she didn't clear him and she's the only one that can clear him. FAA CPL-H I dont see any defense to his behavior. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? Thank you. Undiagnosed tumors and the like can lead to emotional regulation problems and impaired judgement. Don't get what you want, "burn down the system.". Caller - is he available, All I can say is ATC should be paid for saving people's lives!!!!! Federal Aviation Administration Sometimes pilots make a mistake and wrongly enter this zone which is deemed a violation. This kind of thing gets people killed. I remember many times that pilots would argue with me about instructions. Have you ever said anything nasty to somebody else on the ground or anywhere? There's many reasons my flights keep being delayed and canceled and ATC being overworked is one of them. > Word of caution: the owner of the aircraft is easily found, and plenty of information is out there. This isnt a slap on the wrist type of offense. Assuming N1NR requested clearance, in standard aviation communications, there is a clear protocol. It will get figured out. The pilot never requested clearance into the class BRAVO airspace. he just kept right on going disregarding the safety of hundreds of people on the SWA planes. The Flight . - refusing to take down a number because "busy flying" Eg. I'm a Retired LAS Controller. Keep up the anti-mask bs. Don't assume the pilot flying owns the aircraft. The overall outcome will depend on the situation in question and the consequences of the incident. "Negative, November-one-romeo (N1NR)" would be the appropriately phrased response. Get the stick out of your asses. Pull that @$$holes license and give him a huge fine. (https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N731NR). You'd be surprised how many Pilots act like they are the only plane an ATC is working even tho she is nonstop talking sequencing Arrivals to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the USA!!! Other pilots chimed in calling him for what he was. He's going to find it hard for anyone to swallow his excuses. Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. Good on you for being anti-US and pro-mask and anti-Vegas, but not in a discussion that has nothing to do with that, smart-guy. Alan BillingsFOIA Business AnalystFederal Aviation Administration AFN-400(O) 202-267-6352alan.billings@faa.gov, Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Act Request: FAA records for N731NR. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. None of my students have gotten one either. I, at times, if the weather is good enough, cancelled IFR..continuing on my own. The compilation is based on data from the agency's Enforcement Information System (EIS). Indeed: N731NR - Aircraft Registration Information D DankVectorz Legendary Member FAA Messages 1,895 Facility N90 New York Tracon Jun 25, 2020 #6 Phillyman2633 said: What the cuck? Blatantly ignoring ATC is criminally gross negligence. Dad got home that night after his charter. Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. The guy should be grounded for a nice long while. Recognizing the mistakes, learning from them, and apologizing makes for more experienced PICs, and thus safer airspace. For this pilot (tail number N731NR abbreviated to N1NR), it wasn't a mistake as noted by the following exchange: LAS Approach: "N1NR, I need you outside of the Bravo"N731NR: "Negative"LAS: "Negative what? Pull that @$$holes license and give him a huge fine. Thank you, number as soon as IP returns will have him call. Only then did he comply with instructions. I don't care where people get frustrated. U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration 800 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20591 1-866-TELL-FAA (1-866-835-5322) It would be one thing if he "unintentionally" violated the Class B airspace (how exactly do you do that in this day and age?). We have your student at the local FBO, and one of my people has the keys. It seems like the pilot was intent on entering Bravo with or without permission. Yes humans make mistakes, and that is why aviation has the strictest protocols outside the nuclear industry. And the incidents you mention are the exact reason for the existence of Bravo and Charlie airspace in the first place. They have your lives in their hands. The dude that delivered it to the lake about busted the landing. @Coinneach - Im fully aware of their rights, and I do not have to agree with it. Looks like he was below 6000 the whole time. The tower controller likely For everyone making your amazing judgment calls on the Henderson controller: I can almost guarantee you that this clown had the certified letter from the local FSDO awaiting in his mailbox, still smoking by the time he arrived home. It causes paperwork (at the very least) on both sides and is also distracting from other important duties. Open the communication! Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. For those that don't want to read. He responded rogerrrrrrrrrr. The aircraft, N731NR, is registered to "Wife Approved LLC." It should have gone 1NR, please exit the Bravo. Want the latest investigative and FOIA news? As soon as I heard this when she said not cleared I remember him saying thats a $5,000 fine. The second LAS TRACON told him to exit Bravo he should have done the max-bank 180 his aircraft and his passenger(s) and he is comfortable with and exited Bravo. When an aircraft is approaching your airspace and the destination is on the opposite side, it's obvious that they're going to need to descend at some point. Karen Mosley apparetly is clueless about aviation. There are published VFR approaches and having flowing the west side "water tower" I know they're trivial. There was a similar incident once about 10 years ago in New York where the kid would keep declaring and undeclaring an emergency. I looked back over it, and finally saw the one you mentioned, somehow missed it before. And an ATP should be a few thousand. The report said the pilot was distracted adjusting the climate control on approach. This guy make me sick!!! Everything is on tape. He flew straight to KHND like he owned the sky. I'd always much rather be proactive and prevent a pilot deviation. ), Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). Anyone flying under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) needs to hear the words You are cleared to enter the Bravo airspace before entering the Bravo airspace. I'm a commercial pilot and CFII. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately"N731NR (whining): "I've been talking to you the whole time. N1NR answers back that "he's flying". Please view our advertising policy page for additional details about our partners. Flightaware shows he flew in from denver at 16300' level the whole way. That kind of thing happens every day. "LAS: "N1NR, I told you to remain outside the Bravo". Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. Result - IP and my Mom who normally ran the business in Dads absence got back at the same time. I hope he stops making bad decisions before he no longer has the ability to do so. At the end, it seems like there was at least one transmission we didn't hear where this pilot was giving "his side of the story" to Henderson Ground, hence that controller apologizing to him. (at least formally) N731NR Aircraft Registration Aircraft Summary Summary 1980 CESSNA P210N Fixed wing single engine (6 seats / 1 engine) Owner WIFE APPROVED LLC TORRANCE , CA, US Airworthiness Class Standard/Normal Serial Number P21000509 Engine CONT MOTOR TSIO-520 SER (Reciprocating) Horsepower: 300 Weight Less than 12,500lbs Speed 141mph Mode S Code Probably is not the first time he had poor service from ATC. We will leave some of the most common violations below for you to read about. What's the big deal? Go read the news HERE AND NOW and find out when we call the cops with the .50 BMGs to take out one guy going to the store because he looks "suspicious".*. Everything is on tape. Controllers do not make up things to pick on pilots. When the controller said he was not cleared to enter the class B he probably thought he wasn't in the class B and after his 1st conversation is when he probably noticed he was off altitude because he made a quick decent to 4000 ft. His next run in is when he cut the corner of the center ring which is from the ground to 10000 ft MSL. His license should be permanently revoked. @Francis Bagbey incorporated its pilot deviation notification procedures into the Facility Operation and Administration publication in 1986. Neil Wilsonthe CFIIsays "maybe the controller was playing her class BRAVO authority a little too far".. You should not be a CFII with that kind of attitude. Time for this jerk to buy a ticket on Southwest and shut up. If N1NR requested clearance but did not hear back from ATC, they would have to repeat the request as they cannot assume what ATC heard; however, it is highly unlikely that even if ATC heard the request they would allow N1NR clearance into Bravo. Continuing into class Bravo airspace without a clearance and then flying right thru the active ILS approach to a major airport is a huge problem. Let the appropriate agency (the FAA) handle this. I was the 16yo kid working the desk when his #2 instructor sent a private student off on his long cross country and controlled airspace solo flight he went to lunch. Happens every day, but not usually with the drama that this knucklehead exhibited A few weeks ago a commercial pilot blew through the O'hare Bravo - ATC kept trying to gently help him by repeating the local altimeter reading thinking he might check his altitude by the 3rd time he offered it, but eventually just had to notify the errant pilot and provide him with a phone # to call. He just flat out refused. LOL this is probably the same guy that registered the aircraft to WIFE APPROVED LLC. She is going to give him the number when he's ready. These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? But N1NR wants clearance nonetheless and is refusing to leave. Your feedback is important in helping us keep our community safe. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately.Pilot: Ive been talking to you the whole time. He should AT LEAST be suspended, and frankly, given his behavior, I have no issue with his losing it. Good for the controller for remaining reasonable. 2020-007191WS Anonymous (Laing) Invoice.pdf, 2020-007191WS Anonymous (Laing) PDPNR.pdf, Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Act Request #2020-007191. Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ). For a bit of background Bravo airspace or Class B airspace is the term for the airspace around the busiest airports in the country. Whats with the last controller sounding like he is appeasing this dude, instead of trusting the previous controller. In fact, I encourage that. To do this, they will use the Brasher Notification Phraseology. N731NR (still whining): "I've asked for clearance multiple times. Sometimes its not possible to accommodate requests, either because of airport or supervisory/FAA edicts or because of systemic procedures or because of current workload. - hold until otherwise instructed Pilot deviation is when the actions of the pilot result in the violation of a Federal Aviation Regulation or a North American Aerospace Defense Command Air Defense Identification Zone tolerance. Sometimes they have multiple frequencies on the same station, so you might hear more than one controller. Publicado el junio 1, 2022 por junio 1, 2022 por Privacy Policy. However he failed to descend below the inner ring, that ring starts at 4500 ft MSL and goes up to 10000 ft MSL. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Answer (1 of 8): Forgive me, but I have a tendency to twist ambiguous questions like this. Penalties, possibly, but he claesrlrx requested class B and was blown off "Nobody gives a f*. > Nobody gives a f*. I'd very much like to know. And, when pilot deviation notification procedures were first added to the ATC manual in 1995, the procedure and phraseology were substantially similar to the pertinent provisions of Notice "LAS: "No"N731NR: "Yes! The pilots is always in command, not the controller. Its about attitude, and my only (very generous) defense of this pilots terrible attitude is that all of us are more tense and reactive these days with the covid pandemic, elections, riots, BLM, and other socio-political upheavals were dealing with globally. I'm the ATC supervisor in FSD is NxxxxR still Gotta love how times have changed 07-Oct-2022. There must be zero tolerance. It appears this pilot got sloppy without realizing he got sloppy. - claiming he got auth when he didn't If an air traffic controller has determined that the actions of a pilot have affected the safety of operation, then it is the controllers responsibility to notify the flight crew as soon as it is practical to do so. Caller - oh you might say that. Please inform me prior to conducting any service demanding fees.I would prefer the request filled electronically, by e-mail attachment if available or CD-ROM if not. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. There is a letter stating the request was denied because of an ongoing investigation. Pilot: Ive asked for clearance multiple times.ATC: N1NR, I told you to remain outside the Bravo.ATC: N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. There is zero excuse for wasting ATC's time in a Class B in this age of airliners everywhere. Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so. Also in this case, N1NR is crossing directly into the path of other aircraft's landing approach (2 Southwest airplanes at that moment were landing). "This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions." LAS: "N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. This guy intentionally violated it, then took up ATC's time fighting about it. Controllers can order pilots to leave airspace for many reasons but the pilot is refusing to follow the order. Tower: "N12345, I'll call your right turn north east. . Without that you cannot enter class B airspace. The ATC has so many things going on- for him to argue and therefore take her attention away from all the "balls in the air" she is dealing with, the punishment should be more than losing his license, he should be charged with attempted manslaughter or something. I didn't hear anything that I didn't find out of line. Ill give you the number when youre ready to copy.Pilot: Im not ready to copy. The belligerent behavior of the pilot with the controller and the sound of his voice makes me wonder if this might have been suffering from mild hypoxia. This will help to ensure that you are fully prepared for whatever happens next. All the information we have at this point shows that he blamed ATC for . She kept phoning her father, a MD in LA and complaining about her mistreatment and threatening everybody with lawsuits. The plane was a Cessna P210N, so pressurization could be an issue. document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); He violated Bravo airspace. 3h 18m. Your request is assigned to the office listed below: Federal Aviation Administration Contact: Amelia McGillWestern-Pacific Region (424) 405-7221Flight Standards Division, AWP-200777 S. Aviation Blvd.El Segundo, CA 90245. Then he flew back to Torrance the next day. Me - no sir back in aprox 20mts. Please send comments to the following: http://av-info.faa.gov/feedback, Subject: FOIA 2020-007191WS Anonymous (Laing). He let his situational awareness slip, not a good thing. N731NR (angrily): "I'm not ready to copy. The recording indicates a few things going on: sounded like a rough flight, pilot's kid threw up, perhaps he had his hands full. Even if you dont have a good understanding of ATC terminology, the situation should be easy enough to make sense of. I'd like to know more about the outcome. Even if he was previously allowed in the airspace, once told to get out, he has to go, no debate and certainly no defiance. Sometimes, when major airports are busy, they ban transitions through their airspace, in which case you have to either: - route around, under, or above the relevant airspace The guy is completely wrong, sad thing is he will probably only get a slap on the wrist. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. If you are training to be a pilot, or simply have an interest in the industry, a phrase that you might have come across is pilot deviation. Without that you cannot enter class B airspace. The pilot was asked to leave, but decides to stay. The comments on this page have not been provided, reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any advertiser, and it is not an advertiser's responsibility to ensure posts and/or questions are answered. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. Information Mike current at Henderson, they're landing 35"N731NR: [inaudible]. The craziest part in all of this is that when the pilot later talks to Henderson Tower after landing, the controller says I dont know what happened but from what you say, sorry for the service. I guess he was trying to be professional, but this is one of those cases where he was being too nice, given that the pilot was just about 100% in the wrong, while the controller was just about 100% in the right. Ah, Karen. Even the simplest of deviations can make the difference between life and death, which is why it is so important to stick to the rules. Your participation in helping us identify both our strong and weak points will help us improve our service(s) to all our stakeholders. Reminds me of center frequencies ignoring calls from VFR aircraft. He SHOULD lose his cert for I suspect the way this will be (or has been) settled is that both the controller and the pilot will be counseled respectively on what they could have done to prevent the situation. I hope that this finds you well and safe, We apologize for the delay in response. He probably should have his certificate revoked. This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. An entitled pilot enters restricted airspace and argues with air traffic control when told to leave.It appears to be a normal day June 20, 2020 at Las Vegas Air Traffic Control (ATC) when an air traffic controller directing planes notices a small Cessna in Bravo airspace that was not cleared to be there. Share sensitive information only on official, secure websites. Have you ever said That's a terrible thing to say, that a pilot should lose his license. | Busted Bravo Airspace VASAviation - 519K subscribers Join Subscribe 9.7K 728K views 2 years ago Date: 20/JUN/2020 Your support is really. Who knows what the FAA would consider a serious offense if we ever make a legitimate error? Pierce, April 6, 1859. But it's not an excuse for the way he talked to the controller. For verification purposes, even though the expiration date on the registration certificate may not match the expiration date in the FAA Aircraft . Part of the perfected status is a complete name, and address from each requestor. The pilot violated the FARs and FSDO needs to take appropriate action. Good luck. ALL pilots know you have to hear the magic words, Cleared into Brovo. Any follow up on this? Of course that is true, but people who are suffering recent onset of dementia / tumor-induced emotional outbursts / schizophrenia etc. The owner of that plane holds a Commercial Pilot Certificate. BTW to the ATC controller who explained workload issues during handoff - thank you!! from 7110.65 Reply IctrlPlanes Additional comment actions It was after the check ride was over that it was actually issued. If this pilot had responded to the controllers first comment with, Oh my gosh. She should have vectored him out after he refused. Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. Student then bought a old Grumen Float plane thinking he would used it to fly back and forth to his lake home. If you should have any trouble viewing this email or the attachment, please notify us immediately. Instructions on distribution of Or . Thats the whole point of talking to you.ATC: You have to have a Bravo clearance. A lock ( LockA locked padlock ) or https:// means youve safely connected to the .gov website. I noticed the same aircraft had an incident last year with a gear-up landing in St. Louis. PILOT DEVIATION REPORT (Continued) INSTRUCTIONS The FAA Form 8020-18 must be completed within 90 days of the notification of a pilot deviation on FAA Form 8020-17, "Preliminary Pilot Deviation Report." The FAA Form 8020-18 must be assigned the same incident report number as the corresponding FAA Form 8020-17. But Id recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question. I would have made up some BS like instruments or alternator. Please refer to the above referenced number on all future correspondence regarding this request. I'm not so sure she would know how to "buy a clue"!? In over 30 years of flying, I have sat and listened to amateur pilots give ATC professionals a load of sh*#. That award goes to the pilot of PK8303 who ignored multiple warnings about how he was too high and fast, and then tried to land with gear up before killing almost everyone on board. Last thing I want flying over a populated area is some guy who thinks he owns the airspace, and willing to butt heads over it. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. I wonder if they're aware of how much exposure this has in the pilot community. Calling the cops on "someone suspicious" has become a way to say "There's a minority person and I don't like something about them so I called the cops on them.". airworthiness of an aircraft or the current aircraft configuration. Thanks. The FAA should (and probably will) commence an emergency revocation of the pilot's certificate. Im an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that Im occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace.
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