However, the women did say they believed he would only stay at the home until Friday, and were surprised that he was there through the weekend. Boston 25 News facebook feed(Opens a new window), Boston 25 News twitter feed(Opens a new window), Boston 25 News youtube feed(Opens a new window), School administrators: Create a closings account, The couples son, Joel Michael Guy Jr., 32, is charged, Winter storm warning in effect with heavy snow, sleet, rain expected in Massachusetts, Video shows deadly crash, building collapse following high-speed police chase, Chirping scouting report has parents of two local hockey teams concerned, Video shows ceiling panel collapsing onto train platform nearly hitting a woman, Deputies: Men killed, planned to eat bald eagle. He also purchased isopropyl alcohol and hydrogen peroxide. Joel Guy was arrested Tuesday evening in the alleged gruesome murder of his parents, Joel Guy Sr., 61, and Lisa Guy, 55. Kelly Cochran, the killer who barbecued her boyfriend, Erin Caffey, the teenager who had her family killed. In his closing statement, Guy Jr's attorneyJohn Halstead argued that not enough DNA testing had been done. Read the latest here. 2016 Parental murders in Knoxville, Tennessee, US, Louisiana School for Math, Science, and the Arts, "Knox Co. parents found dissolving in 'diabolical stew of human remains,' investigators say", "Joel Guy Jr. Found Guilty of Murdering and Dismembering Parents Just After Thanksgiving in 2016", "Joel Guy Jr accused of murdering parents, dismembering corpses", "He was fine at Thanksgiving, his sisters said. You can see straight down the hall and I saw hands not connected to a body. Assistant Knox County District Attorney Leslie Nassios countered, however, that Guys cheerful demeanor was part of the defendants plan. The state, however, is not seeking the death penalty. r/TrueCrime - Joel Guy Jr. asks to be put to death in his parents He allegedly tried dissolving the bodies in acid to get rid of any evidence. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. woman has hands and feet amputated after covid vaccine. Joel Guy Jr, 32, is accused of murdering his parents after they said they planned to stop funding his never-ending college career Credit: Knox County Jail The son was arrested several days after Thanksgiving in 2016 for their deaths, which are said to have happened when he returned home to Tennessee from Louisiana for the holiday. The smell is never going to leave me, McCord said, according to the News Sentinel. why is joel guy jr face swollen - lviconsultores.com.ar Connecter avec: emcee script for virtual seminar for teachers fm 2020 hidden gems descargar plantillas papercraft pdf gratis. Joel Michael Guy Jr pictures,killing and dismembering his parents https://t.co/LlDJPFnrDi pic.twitter.com/9tZtAY04jM. Fisk thanked law enforcement officials, court officers and jurors for their work, and apologized that they had to see the horrific scenes from inside her parents' home. jumla ismia examples in urdu; pounds to dollars in year 1930; casenet kansas johnson county; sheree green wife of travis green; kings mountain road, woodside; what year was amelia reynolds born; rigged urban dictionary; chloe malle instagram; green berets national parks; Guy will return to court Nov. 19 so Knox County Criminal Court Judge Steve Sword can decide if his five life sentences, with the possibility of parole after 51 years, will be served at the same time or consecutively. Or you can login with one the following. Joel Michael Guy Jr. appeared in court in an orange-and-white-striped prison jumpsuit, shackled: https://t.co/d2ManeHhFX pic.twitter.com/49R9wHAqm8, The Advocate (@theadvocatebr) December 1, 2016. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Guy was reportedly studying to be a plastic surgeon in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and had been in college for nine years while his parents supported him. why is joel guy jr face swollen - effectivepmc.org According to Court TV, Guy was also convicted of one count of felony murder for killing his mother while committing the first-degree murder of his father and two counts of felony murder while committing a theft. While the gruesome crime was baffling, the motive was rather blatant: Joel Guy Jr. would receive $500,000 in life insurance if his parents died or disappeared. They indicated Lisa had set up a scheduled meeting that day that she would not miss, MacLean said. Parents cut son off he cut them up WHEN Joel Michael Guy Jr learned that his parents were going to cut him https://t.co/zQsUo9v9Bi, londonlivepro (@Londonlivepro) December 1, 2016. The scene showed evidence of a struggle, with torn blinds, blood on the wall and corner, and an overturned Bowflex machine. A piece of a knife was found embedded in his shoulder. Each body had a large gash inflicted after death so that the chemicals would more quickly seep into the body's main cavity. By then Guy Jr had gone back to his apartment in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. An officer used a garage door opener in one of the Guys' cars to gain access to the house. They ascended the stairs, hearing an intermittently barking dog. Guy Jr. and his three half-sisters attended what was to be the last event at the Knoxville house, Thanksgiving, on Thursday, November 24, 2016. Just horrifying thinking that the quiet neighborhood where everyone waves at each other and willing to help each other, this could happen our street, a neighbor told WBIR. But prosecutors said they are not seeking the death penalty in his case. One of the knives used in the double homicide is seen in a master bathroom sink in this screenshot from a police walk-through video, The male victim's clothes are pictured resting next to a pair of knives in the room, A stockpot containing Lisa Guy's severed head is seen boiling on the stove after her murder, Two plastic containers are pictured inside the home of Joel Guy Sr and Lisa Guy in Tennessee containing the couple's partially liquifed remains. The views expressed in the contents above are those of our users and do not necessarily reflect the views of MailOnline. Would love your thoughts, please comment. Authorities believe the couple decided not to wait until Christmas to deliver the news to their son. In the state of Tennessee, a conviction on first-degree murder charges triggers automatic sentencing of life in prison for each count. Joel Michael Guy Jr., 32, was convicted Oct. 2, 2020, of the Nov. 26, 2016, murders and dismemberment of his parents inside their Knoxville, Tenn., home, seen here in dalle bton prfabriqu point p accident saint hilaire de clisson; constat par ses prposs dfinition He was shot as a witness. Updated January 7, 2022 In 2016, 28-year-old Joel Guy Jr. murdered his parents, dismembered their bodies, and dissolved their remains in acid while boiling his mother's head on the stove. June 8, 2022; how old was john gotti when he died; cms cameron mckenna nabarro olswang llp contact number . McCord initially left the pot alone as he checked the rest of the house. He stabbed his father 42 times before knifing his mother 31 times. 6 6."I think about you all the time:" Joel Guy Jr. contacts best friend from jail. 18 Berger Street Vorna Valley, Midrand, 1686 / +27 11 805 0020 bam trading services san francisco. joel guy jr face swelling reddit - bridgeloans.money "With him missing/dead, I get the whole thing.". He lived in Baton Rouge, where he attended college, but had. "(Guys sister) Michelle Tyler told you that was unusual. TOP 9 why was joel guy jr. face swollen BEST and NEWEST Although family members told authorities about the elder Guys' plans to scale back their son's financial support, MacLean would not confirm whether that was their son's motive for allegedly . Prosecutors alleged he fatally stabbed his parents, Joel Guy Sr., 61, and Lisa Guy, 55, dozens of times, attempted to dissolve some of their remains in chemicals and boiled his mother's severed head in a stockpot. They both had a great sense of humor, were loving and kind-hearted, and the most compassionate people. joel guy jr face swelling reddit - bridgeloans.money [16], Upon arriving home, Lisa Guy entered through the front door, dropped the groceries on the floor of the foyer,[17] proceeded upstairs, and was attacked with a knife. joel guy jr face swelling - habitationgaspesie.com Fink said her family will never be the same. June 10, 2022 . The bodies of Joel and Lisa Guy were found Monday night in their home at 11434 Goldenview Lane, Knox County Sheriff's Office Maj. Michael MacLean said. By 14 junio, 2022 seraphiel angel of silence 14 junio, 2022 seraphiel angel of silence Theres something in that pot. With his retirement would come a move to a new house and an end to the cash flow to the couples son. The celebratory feast on Nov. 26 seemingly went without a hitch, after which all three daughters returned to their individual lives. The groceries, which included perishable items, were found strewn near the front door, indicating that Lisa Guy was surprised when she returned home. Joel Guy Jr, 32, sat with a blank expression on his face when a Knox County jury found him guilty on Friday of two counts of premeditated first-degree murder, three counts of felony murder. The engineering designers hands were severed, and his arms were severed at the shoulder blade. On November 18 at Home Depot, cameras record him buying the bleach sprayer, extension cords, and a timer. 6 years later, his mother, Linda Ibarra, took her life and that of his 7-year-old brother, Lorenzo. The notes then detail how Guy Jr allegedly sought to place his fathers body in a plastic bin and use it to haul him into the shower alongside his mothers body to wash away evidence. The apartment of Joel Michael Guy Jr. at the Oakbrook Apartments south of LSU's campus, Wednesday, November 30, 2016, in Baton Rouge, La. Mom who lost both sons to fentanyl blasts laughing Biden, Missing hiker buried under snow forces arm out to wave to helicopter, Pavement where disabled woman gestured at cyclist before fatal crash, Isabel Oakeshott receives 'menacing' message from Matt Hancock, Pro-Ukrainian drone lands on Russian spy planes exposing location, 'Buster is next!' According to police, the couple had stab wounds and had been dismembered after a Thanksgiving holiday with Guy and his three sisters. Assistant Knox County District Attorney General Leslie Nassios said during opening statements Monday that Joel Guy Jr. made a list of things to do prior to the murders and brought items with him, including a blender and a food processor, that he planned to use in the crime. If he had acted angry, how would that look when their bodies turned up later?. 8.The Case of Joel Guy Jr. : r/ThatChapter - Reddit. [21], The toxic fluid required bio-hazard equipment for removal by the KCSO Hazmat Team. He was convicted of both murders in October 2020 and received a sentence of life imprisonment. Baste once every hour to accelerate. And they loved him (her brother). It was to be the familys last holiday in the house, which Lisa and Joel Guy Sr. had recently sold. Blog Home Uncategorized joel guy jr face swelling. They planned to move back to their native Kingsport, Tennessee, two weeks later. Prosecutors said that the writing contained information only Guy Jr would know, such as details of his mothers life insurance policy. His legs were removed at the hip and his right foot was removed, prosecutors said. The Knoxville, Tennessee, couple was grateful to have their son, Joel Guy Jr., and his three half-sisters over for Thanksgiving. [16] Nine of her ribs were severed. Crystal Bonvillian, Cox Media Group National Content Desk, Son charged with horrific 2016 murder of parents. Son charged with horrific 2016 murder of parents (NCD), KNOXVILLE, Tenn. Lisa and Joel Guy Sr. suffered deaths that one investigator previously described as the most horrific thing (hes) ever encountered in law enforcement, in life.. Joel Guy Sr. and Lisa Guy planned to cut their son off financially. They were such really good people," Fink said. I will never get those smells out of my head or my dreams.. Guy Jr. was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. Their son is not. Knox County Sheriffs Office Detective Jeremy McCord described the carnage he found inside the Guys home as the most horrific thing Ive ever encountered in police work in my life.. When his mother went out shopping on Nov. 24, he began. Prosecutor said he killed his parents because they wanted to cut off his financial support. "$500,000 would be all mine, the page said. The force of the blows was so extreme that nine of her ribs were severed. Some of the wounds were so severe that his ribs were scraped and, in some cases, cut clean through, the news station reported. Multiple body parts were found in Tupperware containers, McCord testified, according to the News Sentinel. How '90 Day Fianc' Star Stephanie Matto Ended Up Hospitalized After Eating Too Many Beans To Sell Farts, Inside The Disturbing Disappearance Of Susan Powell, The Utah Mother Presumed Murdered By Her Husband, What Stephen Hawking Thinks Threatens Humankind The Most, 27 Raw Images Of When Punk Ruled New York, Join The All That's Interesting Weekly Dispatch. >> Related story: Man kills parents, dismembers and dissolves bodies in acid after family Thanksgiving dinner, police say. He spent one semester at George Washington University,[8] then attended Louisiana State University as a student and lived in Baton Rouge until the murders in 2016, ostensibly training to become a plastic surgeon. But Joel Guy Jr.s work had only just begun. Joel Guy Sr.'s sister, and the defendants aunt, Robin White, testified Monday that her brother had told her he was planning to retire, WVLT reported. joel guy jr face swelling - walker-assoc.com Joel Guy Jr. Unblurred Crime Scene Photos? : r/MorbidReality - reddit This page may contain sensitive or adult content that's not for everyone. Michelle Tyler, the Guys' other daughter, said the horror of the murders has impacted her own children, 'and for that I will never be able to forgive,' she said, according to WBIR. [1][2] Guy Jr. stabbed his father at least 42 times, his mother at least 31 times. Knox County Sheriffs OfficeThe crime scene of Joel Guy Jr. was so littered with evidence that it only took police mere days to arrest him. I pray that we can move on from this and that we can put this behind us. The detective found Joel Guy Sr.'s hands on the floor of a bedroom and the couples torsos inside two blue plastic containers in a bathroom. "The prosecution reveals a notebook found in Joel Guy Jr.'s room with a detailed list of steps to cover up a murder.Watch #CourtTV LIVE: TN vs. Joel Guy Jr https://t.co/tnYdPcDRMU pic.twitter.com/S53STIxYzi. Beitrags-Autor: Beitrag verffentlicht: Juni 4, 2022 Beitrags-Kategorie: how to respond to thank you email professionally Beitrags-Kommentare: aita for walking out of the delivery room aita for walking out of the delivery room Watch #CourtTV LIVE: TN vs. Joel Guy Jr https://t.co/tnYdPcDRMU pic.twitter.com/2TjsdCAGZE. Like most Americans in late November, Joel Michael Guy and his wife Lisa were preparing for a feast. The son was arrested several days after Thanksgiving in 2016 for their deaths, which are said to have happened when he returned home to Tennessee from Louisiana for the holiday. [9][10], The Guys had recently sold their Knoxville house, and planned to retire to Surgoinsville. He also pointed out that during the Thanksgiving celebration preceding the murders, his client was described as seeming 'outgoing, friendly and happy. Fink told Sword following the verdict that her parents were wonderful people who loved their children. Inside the car that prosecutors are trying to prove was Guy Jrs was a meat grinder and a gas can in the trunk.. Photos: See Tennessee crime scene, Baton Rouge apartments where suspect Another page in the notebook shows details of the "assets" which Lisa Guy owned, including a $500,000 life insurance policy that lists Guy Jr as a beneficiary. Watch #CourtTV LIVE: TN vs. Joel Guy Jr https://t.co/tnYdPcDRMU pic.twitter.com/SxJblStxK2. Guy, 28, resided in Louisiana and went home after the alleged murders. One note shown to the jury says: "Kill him with the knife, clean up mess from him before she gets home. [19], Lisa's boss, Jennifer Whited, was suspicious of her absence from work and called police for a welfare check. [28]. Their mutilated bodies were found Monday at their home in. Photo courtsey Don Jacobs Knoxville News Sentinel This Home is at 11434 Goldenview Lane in West Knox County where two bodies were found. Hawes revealed that Joel Guy Srs head had been reduced to a skeleton due to the chemicals and flesh and melted off his and his wifes front torsos. 15 Joel Guy Jr has been convicted of the murder of his parents Credit: Knox County Sherriff's Office 15 tulsa primary care physicians why is joel guy jr face swollen. joel guy jr face swelling - Walker & Associates He also brought along a blender and a food processor. Court records show Guy Jr wrote chilling details in a notebook of how he planned to chop up his parents, flush chunks down the toilet, and melt their fingerprints. I get the whole thing.. This sentencing is for abuse of a corpse charges. To view it, confirm your age. In the portion of the recorded call played for jurors, McCracken acknowledged he'd done something terrible that would permanently change his life. The force of the blows was so extreme that nine of her ribs were severed. Lisa Guy, a mother of four, was stabbed 31 times, the prosecutor said. The jury heard forensic testimony that revealed Guy Sr was stabbed at least 42 times and his wife at least 31 times, both stabbed in the chest and back. He wanted to deflect attention from himself. He was getting ready to get what he wanted. The notebook then continues: "Cut off his arm and plant flesh under her fingernails. McCord was one of the deputies who conducted the welfare check that day. why is joel guy jr face swollen Follow us. We are no longer accepting comments on this article. Murdaugh is heckled as he leaves court, Ken Bruce finishes his 30-year tenure as host of BBC Radio 2, Moment teenager crashes into back of lorry after 100mph police race, Alex Murdaugh unanimously found GUILTY of murder of wife and son, Isabel Oakeshott clashes with Nick Robinson over Hancock texts, Family of a 10-month-old baby filmed vaping open up, Ukrainian soldier takes out five tanks with Javelin missiles, Lisa Guy bought the tubs she was dissolved in;' prosecutors make closing arguments against Joel Guy Jr. as deliberations begin, Joel Guy Jr. Trial, Day Four: Jury in deliberations | wbir.com, Joel Guy Jr. convicted of killing and dismembering his parents, Joel Guy Jr. guilty of murdering and dismembering parents in 2016 | wbir.com. [15], Lisa Guy was also seen on surveillance footage shortly before her murder, buying items at Walmart at approximately 12:15PM. Guy gave them no indication that anything was wrong or that something so horrific would happen. ', The prosecution called a string of witnesses and presented extremely graphic evidence against the defendant, including photos of Guy Sr and Lisa's partially dissolved torsos floating in what has been described as a 'diabolical stew of human remains.'. [20], Among other items investigators found upstairs were sewer line cleaner, a bag of baking soda, Liquid Fire brand drain cleaner, hydrochloric acid, drain opener, lye, hydrogen peroxide, bleach and a bleach sprayer. Heaters had been plugged in and left on, bringing the temperature to 93 degrees. Guy reportedly studied to become a plastic surgeon at Louisiana State University (LSU) for for nine years. Guy Sr had his arms severed at the shoulder, legs at the him and his right foot cut off. I pray that my children are not going to be scarred for life from this.. He was usually distant, keeping to himself. On November 26, 2016, 61-year-old Joel Guy Sr. and 55-year-old Lisa Guy were murdered and dismembered by their son, 28-year-old Joel Michael Guy Jr., in Knoxville, Tennessee, United States. Posted by July 3, 2022 keto crab rangoon with mozzarella cheese on joel guy jr face swelling reddit July 3, 2022 keto crab rangoon with mozzarella cheese on joel guy jr face swelling reddit PARENTS DISMEMBERED MURDER TRIAL: Bodycam footage shows the home where Joel Guy Jr. allegedly killed his parents. Joel Guy Jr. was born on March 13, 1988, with relatives calling him Joel Michael to distinguish him from his father. Prosecutor Leslie Nassios countered by arguing that Guy Jr'sunusually cheerful disposition that weekend was all part of the plan. In the video, one of his hands appears to be bandaged. Life in prison: Joel Guy Jr. convicted of brutal 2016 murders 'Douse killing rooms (kitchen?) Jurors also found him guilty of two counts of abuse of a corpse. why is joel guy jr face swollen - comedoresyahualica.com Joel Guy Jr. was a former Louisiana State University student living on his parents' dime in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Some of the wounds were so severe that his ribs were scraped and, in some cases, cut clean through, and a piece of a knife was found embedded in his shoulder. Guy, 32, is charged with murder and abuse of a corpse. He and fellow deputies found a garage door opener in one of the couples cars and used it to gain access to the attached garage. Guy said, "I haven't been an albatross around your neck before, but I certainly would be now." The grisly double homicide was part of a plot to cash in on $500,000 in life insurance benefits, which the prosecution said Guy Jr masterminded after learning his parents were planning to retire and cut him off financially. Joel Guy Jr.s notes also mentioned his parents' assets. Due to the volume of evidence found, KCSO's Forensics Unit worked throughout Monday night and into the following day processing the crime scene. The Guys planned to tell their son at Christmas, but they did not live past Thanksgiving weekend. Jurors saw a detailed plan, in Guys own handwriting, for how to kill his parents, dismember their bodies and dissolve their bones in chemicals hed purchased. Joel Guy Jr., 28, was arrested Tuesday in Baton Rouge, La., and will be returned to Knox County to face trial, authorities said. [23][24] Guy Jr.'s defense counsel, John Halstead and Jonathan Harwell, presented no evidence on his behalf. Earlier in the trial, jurors heard how Guy Jr had allegedly made meticulous notes about how he would slaughter and dispose of his victims. This page in the notebook said: 'Get Knives - quite - multiple. Outside the back door, which was missing a doorknob, he could feel heat emanating from the house, along with a really odd chemical smell.. I bet he was, Nassios said, according to the News Sentinel. Authorities said the couples remains were found in multiple rooms throughout their home, CBS reported. Douse killing rooms (kitchen?) I get the whole thing. Authorities said in 2016 that the women were surprised their brother planned to stay the weekend. His half-sisters would note that he was reclusive and rarely left his room, but was intellectually competent. Photos: See Tennessee crime scene, Baton Rouge apartments where suspect was arrested in gruesome killings, Baton Rouge man accused of killing, dismembering parents in 'gruesome' Tennessee slaying, Update: Dec. 16 extradition hearing set for Baton Rouge man accused of dismembering parents in Tennessee, Baton Rouge man indicted in Tennessee on murder charges after parents dismembered, Report: Evidence from Baton Rouge man's home can't be used in his parents' murder trial. He placed his parents torsos and limbs into two 45-gallon plastic containers and turned the thermostat to 90 degrees. [6][7] He had never worked and had always been supported by his family. Powered by. Cookie Notice Guilty: Joel Guy Jr, 32, showed no emotion when a Tennessee jury on October 2 found him guilty of murdering his parents and dismembering their bodies for financial gain, Guy Jr was arrested in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, just days after the gruesome killings in November 2016. The Guys planned to tell their son at Christmas, the women said. Farm Heroes Saga, the #4 Game on iTunes. A 300+ pound counselor held and even straddled his 65 pound body on the ground for 15 minutes. The motive is pretty apparent in this case money $500,000. 'Outgoing, friendly and happy? how to shapeshift physically. Joel Michael Guy Jr. is on trial for the Nov. 26, 2016, killings and dismemberment of his parents in their Knoxville, Tenn., home. They suffered deep stab wounds to organs including the kidneys, liver, their lungs and their heart. Somewhere upstairs, a dog barked. But they would never get the chance because Joel Guy Jr., well-versed in his parents finances, wanted their money for himself. Joel Guy is being held in connection with the gruesome murders of his parents. The corresponding bullet point reads 'kill her with a knife', before instructions to place 'her' to which the police interpret to be Lisa Guy in the shower and 'turn on hot water and point at her to get rid of forensics'. Police believe the couple was killed sometime between Friday and Saturday afternoon, The Advocate reported. They were last seen alive preparing to move a boat to their new home, and were accompanied by Guy. The 61-year-old father and his 55-year-old wife thus happily hosted one last hurrah, inviting their children for Thanksgiving 2016. Joel Guy Jr., 32, is on trial for the Nov. 26, 2016, murders and dismemberment of his parents inside their Knoxville, Tenn., home, seen here in an April 2012 Street View image. Learn about careers at Cox Media Group. For anyone to do what he did, I dont understand it.. PARENTS DISMEMBERED: The jury is shown crime scene photos of the home where prosecutors allege #JoelGuyJr dismembered his parents' bodies and tried to dissolve their bones using acid.GRAPHIC CONTENTWatch #CourtTV LIVE TRIAL of TN v. Joel Guy Jr. https://t.co/tnYdPcDRMU pic.twitter.com/T4Ya8L1pU7. On November 21, cameras capture Guy Jr. at a Knoxville Walmart buying a plastic blue tote large enough for the dismembered bodies to dissolve in. '$500,000 would be all mine,' the page read. Joel Guy Sr., 61, was stabbed 42 times, the knife damaging his lungs, liver and kidneys. Joel Guy Sr., 61, was stabbed 42 times, the knife damaging his lungs, liver and kidneys. [4] The murder involved an elaborate plot to stab both parents, dismember and dissolve their remains, and clean and burn down some of the house, as well as frame the father for the crime. Ben Affleck gets into car trouble as he attempts to get his Mercedes out of a tight parking spot in LA, Criminal charge against American Airlines passenger, 36, who 'tried to breach the cockpit' is DROPPED, 'Cocaine Bear, hold my beer': Production company behind 'Sharknado' is set to release 'Attack of the Meth Gator' this summer, Disney animator Burny Mattinson, who animated classic Sleeping Beauty and became its longest-serving employee, dies at 87, Accused killer Alex Murdaugh shamelessly exploited quadriplegic client in a commercial after cheating him out of $1MILLION, PICTURED: San Antonio man, 81, who was mauled to death by pack of dogs including pit bulls - as owner's wife reveals beasts have attacked TWICE before (but still claims they're NOT to blame).
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